INT: Did you work on the screenplay? I mean, were you a co-writer on CROSSING DELANCEY? 

JMS: No, not at all. No, she [Susan Sandler] wrote it. But she was responsive to, you know, ideas and things that we, things that we brought to it, and… That was, it was definitely her screenplay. And she was a very… the whole time I was trying to, and everybody was saying no, they didn’t wanna make it, and I remember one executive said he didn’t like any characters in the whole movie in the screenplay, and we just got, you know, it’s what we all, what we all put up with. And Susan kept saying to me, “You’re gonna get it made.” And I’d say, “Well Susan, you know, if wishes were horses…” And she says, “No, you’re gonna get it made.” She just had a faith and she was very nice about it.

INT: So now, we go, really both into other films, and the ‘90s [1990s], and a whole slew of work that you did, both in television, and in movies, and I don’t know if you wanna discuss these in detail, or if there’s anything in particular you wanna talk about, or that whole period. 

JMS: I think that period consisted essentially of assignments. Material that I didn’t originate, or not material that I wrote, or weren’t even my ideas, you know, but simply things that I was hired to do. And I had a number of wonderful experiences that way. And made a couple things I felt good about, and you know other things I thought that even if the material wasn’t so interesting to me, I enjoyed the experience. So it was fun to know that I could be a Director for hire, and still find satisfaction in it. It’s a different kind. [INT: Absolutely, because, you know… I think every film, it’s so funny, someone asked me, you know, which films do you, you may have particular favorites, but every film is a child, so, you love them…] And you remember things about it. You know, there were experiences that you had with the cast, or with the crew, that are very satisfying to you. You know, I’ve always… One of the things that I enjoy most about making movies is my relations with the crew. Because there’s a volatility to the Actors, and you know, but with the crew, somehow, I always feel like I’m one of them. I’m not really one of the Actors; I’m really one of the crew. And I’ve had a lot of fun with crews. And I think on some of those I can remember, you know, great experiences and things that I really enjoyed. And I think at a couple cases I made films I like, for instance, CHARMS FOR THE EASY LIFE very much. That was based on an excellent novel, by Kaye Gibbons. And in fact--[INT: Was that was for television movie, recently?] For television movie. It was done for Showtime, and it was about three generations of a Southern family, and the generations were played by Gena Rowlands the great, and Mimi Rogers played her daughter, and a new young woman named Susan Pratt [Susan May Pratt] played Mimi’s daughter. And it was these three women, and their experiences. And it was kind of a great fun period, and interesting, and… I had a, I loved my cameraman. It was made in Canada. Jean Lepine was the cameraman, and the whole crew was marvelous, and I just, I liked that material very much. [INT: Right, right. Yeah, I mean, I didn’t get to see some of the television work; it’s hard to get a hold of this stuff, but I totally understand what you’re saying, since I myself have, you know, gone through the Director for hire world, and you know, you had the great, good fortune and tenacity, and luck, and talent, to really make your stamp very early on as the kind of filmmaker you are, so this is a great…] Yes. I don’t think people would come and get me if they didn’t want me to, you know, didn’t know who I was. It wasn’t as though I was, you know…

JMS: But I even made a couple of episodic. [INT: Oh, did you?] One was SISTERS [SISTERS: A PERFECT CIRCLE], and I did it because Swoosie Kurtz was in SISTERS, and I know her, and I know Patricia Kalember, and I knew two of the four sisters, and they said, “Oh come on,” and I said, “All right, I’ll go out and do one. I’ll see what, see if I like it.” I had fun; I totally had fun doing that. You know, that’s a whole different experience, because you move into something where it’s all set up. It’s all gonna go on after you, it all went on before you, so you just move in… Basically, I remember saying to the Producer, “You know, it ain’t broke. I don’t see why I should try to fix it, you know, I just wanna see if I can become a part of this, and make this,” and I had a wonderful time. I had a script I enjoyed, and I enjoyed my, and I loved the sisters. They were wonderful. [INT: Actually, it’s an ideal show--was an ideal show for your, what you could contribute to it, ‘cause I remember it’s a very lovely show and they were terrific Actors.] Oh they were great. And then Montel Williams was in a show, I said--my Agent said, “Well would you do that again,” and I said, “Well, I really don’t want to go out to California to do it, but if there’s one that’s shooting in New York.” So he called up and he said, “There’s one right outside of New York, it’d take you 10 minutes to get there.” Haha. It was in Bayonne, New Jersey, which takes longer than 10 minutes. But anyway, it was, by that time I was, by the time I found that out I was already in the thick of it. Montel Williams played a teacher at a school, and I don’t think it was succeeded as a episodic series at all, but, once again, I really had a wonderful time. I mean I had all these kids who were the students in the class, and that was really great fun. And I had lessons, and… it was terrific. I mean I enjoyed the experience. [INT: No, it can be great fun when it’s a good group. It can also be a horrendous experience when it’s not. I’ve done my share of it, and you know, I actually enjoy it a lot when I do do it, it’s great fun.]

JMS: FISH IN THE BATHTUB was simply a script that was sent, and, by the Writers, who were two Canadian guys. And John Silberstein and David... [INT: "Written by John Silberstein and David Chudnovsky..."] That's it, David Chudnovsky. And Ray, [Ray Silver] Ray wrote the final draft. Okay, so this came, and I liked it. I thought that it was an interesting thing about two people who’ve had a very long marriage, and he retires and begins to make her life miserable, his wife’s life miserable. And she decides she doesn’t need this anymore. And she leaves and moves in with one of her kids. And that’s how they get back together again, just an odd kind of… And Ray, by that time, was getting into writing, and wanted to--the script needed some work, and he did it, which was helpful. And he did a good job. We then were thinking, who would be the right people to play it? And Jerry Stiller and Anne Meara just seemed the perfectly logical people, and they wanted to do it. So, we surrounded them with just a number of wonderful Actors, and we had the most fun. We had all these readings and rehearsals over at our apartment, and with food, and you know, everybody was, wine, and food, and cokes, and everything. And we would just all sit around the table and eat, and talk, and you know, come up with new things, and was just one of those happy, another situation where the crew was really crucial. We shot it mostly in Forest Hills, in Queens, really. I think there was one scene that was shot in Brooklyn. And it was released by a very small company. I don’t think it did much of anything, but it was great fun. [INT: And again, Daniel Shulman was the cameraman, young cameraman?] Yes, a young, very young, very nice cameraman. I hadn’t known him or worked with him before. He was, actually, brought to me by the--we were very low budget, and I think he was brought in by the, Charles Darby, who was the Producer. And he was fine, you know.

INT: Was it [FISH IN THE BATHTUB] independently financed? 

JMS: Yes. Ray [Ray Silver] did it again. [INT: Oh boy, lucky.] I know. We just felt like it’d be fun to make a film ourselves again, you know, after all these things that I’d done; the TV movies and the, you know. And also two studio movies: LOVERBOY and BIG GIRLS DON’T CRY [BIG GIRLS DON’T CRY… THEY GET EVEN]. [INT: Mark Ruffalo was in the film [A FISH IN THE BATHTUB] too.] Yes, Mark Ruffalo, who had done a play in New York, and this was before the Mark Ruffalo, you know, before he bloomed. But he was just absolutely wonderful to work with, and I loved him. He’s great. Missy Yager played his wife. And then his sister was played by another favorite, Jane Adams. And one of my favorite scenes in the whole thing is a fight between the brother and the sister; they were--the two of them were so terrific, Mark Ruffalo and Jane Adams. [INT: I’d love to see the film, I’d love to see it. That’s a great cast, and… So then you tried to sell it to the studios, is that what Ray tried to do after that?] I think he did, yeah, and I think… Nobody, the company who bought it was a very small, I think he tried to sell it to one of the small ones, I mean it obviously wasn’t a big, you know, studio film.

INT: Storyboards or not storyboards, what’s that whole…? I know you made a shot list, but do you, how do you like to work in that? 

JMS: You know, I haven’t done big action films, and I haven’t done the sorts of things where I think storyboards are just… When we get to something where there is a lot of action, there is something like that, then I do want a storyboard, and I want… I do like shot lists, ‘cause it just gives me a, something to go on. It isn’t necessarily something I’m gonna stick to, but it’s like the beginning of it. But I think storyboards maybe for some, different kind of filmmaking. Although I remember the first fight I had to do, it was in LOVERBOY. And it was a… I said to the Stunt Coordinator, I said, “Listen, this one’s on you, ‘cause I mean, I’ve never had a fight in my life, and nothing in the world would make me do this. If I’m in trouble, I might scratch, or kick, or you know, bite,” but I said, “It would never occur to me to go like this.” And he said, “Well guess what? If you really do fights, not the ones in the movies, but the ones that you really see in the bars, that’s exactly what men are doing. They’re kicking and biting and scratching.” I said, “You’re kidding! You mean all this…” He said, “Yeah, another convention of the movies.” Interesting. [INT: Isn’t that great, isn’t that great. Since I haven’t ever really been in a fight myself, I can’t answer that one.]

INT: Let me go to these Directors Guild [DGA] questions. Oh, they’ve got a fun one here, I’m gonna just throw out at you, which is, this says here, what is the worst part of directing, and what is the best part of directing? And I don’t know if you even wanna address that since we’ve talked so much about it. 

JMS: The worst part of directing is the difficulty that you have getting yourself to the starting gate. I would say that’s the worst part. It’s so hard to get each, each one is such a, you know, you’re always pushing that rock up the hill. I would say that’s hard. And also, I do better when I’m left alone more, so that would be another hard thing. And the best part, is I guess the cast and the crew, and just the whole sense of it all. It’s the whole… it’s fun.

INT: And when did you first join the DGA? When did that… 

JMS: I think right after I did HESTER STREET. And I have extremely positive feelings about DGA; I just think it’s a great union. You know, DGA doesn’t casually go on strike. It basically tries to work its problems out. And whenever I’ve had a problem that I’ve brought to them, they’ve been able to help me. And the way they’ve gone after… I mean sometimes, you know, I’m sure it’s happened to you too. You go to the mailbox, and there’s a check that you--of something you didn’t even know was, you didn’t even know they’d gone after, like the foreign levies or something like that. I just think that the Directors Guild is a guild of… I feel very positive toward the Directors Guild, and I feel very lucky. [INT: Have you ever needed the Guild in arbitration, or something like that?] I don’t think I had arbitration, but I know I worked on one film, BIG GIRLS DON’T CRY [BIG GIRLS DON’T CRY… THEY GET EVEN], which New Line [New Line Cinema] was trying to make without unions. And my union, of course, I mean I wouldn’t make a movie without it being DGA, and the Actors, it was SAG, but I think the others, they were trying to get people to work without the union. And during the time of the shoot, the others went on strike and wanted to unionize. I mean they used that opportunity, and just, the DGA was very helpful, I felt protected, and… I can’t, I tell you, I really feel very positive about the DGA.

INT: Just another question that just occurred to me, and that is, you, obviously, I mean… I feel that you are an East Coast Director, in the sense, true sense of the word. I mean you like stories that take place on the East Coast, or was it just… 

JMS: I don’t think it’s so much that, you know, if it’s a good story, wherever it is, I, you know. But I certainly like living here, and I feel very much at home here. And two of my kids live in California, in LA, and I thought… for a while, but I’m just happier here, and I have a third child here, fortunately, so… [INT: Right.] Grandchildren on every coast.

INT: I had one last question about a film, with just a note here that I had. The last frame of CROSSING DELANCEY, that, how did that come about in ter--you remember how the film ends, it ends on like that freeze frame, and was that? 

JMS: Well, I’m sure we shot, and let them go, you know, continue on out of the frame, but then it just seemed better, instead of just ending up on a empty frame, to end up on them. And by that time, it was, the grandmother was such a lovely character in her complicitness [sic] in bringing these two together. And she, the last shot she walks out, she’s between them, and she says she’s so tired they have to help her to bed, of course, you know, you know that this is manufactured. And one’s on one--Peter Riegert’s on one side, Amy Irving’s on the other side, and as they take her, you kind of… So it was just caught in the midst of it. [INT: Right.]

INT: This has been terrific. Is there anything else you wanna say, any thoughts that come to your mind, that… Let’s talk a little bit, I just… ‘Cause we’ve covered pretty well, the planning of things, the details, the working with the cameraman. Is there anything you wanna say about the relationship between you and your Editors, or making films? How do you see the editing room and…? 

JMS: Well, within my experience, most Editors are… I think the Editors are among the nicest people in the business, first of all. And if you have to go into a room for months with one person, it’s usually, that’s a lucky thing to be with an Editor. I’ve had some extraordinary experiences, such as one with, I told you about, with Ralph Rosenblum. I mean I thought he really made a difference in the way I was looking at the material. I think that’s unusual. I haven’t often had that experience, but I’ve had people who worked very hard, cared a lot about the film, and have a passion for it, and you need that, you know? And I’ve also thought, you know, when you make a movie--first of all you write it, or you work on the script, and everything is safe and nice, you know, and everything’s comfortable. Then you go out and you make the movie, and you know you’re… you know. Oh, the wind’s blowing, and everything else, every day is, just getting through every day is really, often times quite difficult to get everything you want in a day. And then you retreat back into a cave when you do the editing, and I like that rhythm, I just love that kind of, if you want to do something three times, you can change your mind the next day, all the things that you can’t do when you’re on the shoot itself. And I think that whole rhythm is something that I find very pleasing. ‘Cause by the time I finish the shoot, I’m just so ready to just, you know, you don’t have to worry about the weather, you don’t have to worry about what time it is, and if it’s time for somebody’s lunch break, and you know, all the things that you worry about.

JMS: I remember… when I did a TV film that I like very much, A PRIVATE MATTER, with Sissy Spacek, and Aiden Quinn. And it’s based on a true story of Sherri Finkbine, who… It’s about Thalidomide, about a drug that was given to people to make them relax, and rest, and she was pregnant, and was told not to have the baby. But she was a well-known person in the community, she lived in Phoenix, because she had a, she ran the local ROMPER ROOM, which was a children’s television program. And it drew so much attention, that she couldn’t have an abortion in Phoenix, and they had to leave and go get an abortion in Europe. It’s a true story. And working with Sissy, and Aiden was just, oh! But at a certain point in time I had a scene, in which Sissy was talking to two of her friends, and I wanted to do a scene out of my own life, where the mothers are in the pool, in the shallow end, and they’re keeping their eye on their kids who are leaping off the board, and they’re talking. And you know, in the meantime, you know, you hear from your kid, “Mom, mom, look at the…” you know. And you’re looking--because one of the things about motherhood is that you’re doing so many things at once, and I thought that would be kind of a fun way to stage the scene. So, I got, walked in one day, and Sissy’s nephew was her assistant. And he met me and he said, “Sissy wants to go home; she’s very unhappy. She’s already called her husband.” And I said, “What?” And he said, “She’s just, she’s really not happy at all.” So I ran to her trailer, and I said, “Sissy, what’s wrong? What’s wrong?” She said, “I don’t wanna get in the water.” And I said, “So we won’t get in the water.” I said, “I’ll stage it differently. I’ll think of something else, I’ll think of something better, I promise you.” And she said, “But you wanted it to be in the water, you just described the whole thing,” just as I described it to you. And I said, “But that was just one way,” I said, “and if you’re unhappy with it, that isn’t worth it. There’s other ways we can do the scene, and I’m sure we’ll find an excellent way.” So she sat there and then she said, “All right, I’ll go in the water.” And that was the entire… I don’t know, you know? I think she thought it was cold, and she thought she’d be uncomfortable. Somehow she didn’t wanna play the scene that way. But I was perfectly open to changing, you know, how we did the scene, but she was just really… So that was, you know, kind of a striking moment, because it kinda passed.

INT: You know what, let’s spend a couple of minutes talking a little bit about something that, and I don’t know how quite to talk about it, but you can help me. It’s really about the whole, this aspect of a woman in what appears to be in a male society, when you began, and all those obstacles, but… Have you seen it change? I mean you wanna talk a little bit about what that meant, I mean was it, you obviously could feel that it was harder then, and maybe it’s gotten better today, but it still exists, or that, you know… 

JMS: When I started there were so few. First of all, there were no women making--I think, when HESTER STREET came out there was something like 105 television movies that year, or some enormous number, not a single one made by a woman. You can’t tell me that, you know, in the United States there were no women qualified, but no, there were none. Women just didn’t get work. And you were up against just the highest possible wall. It was just felt that women couldn’t do it, women couldn’t handle crews, women couldn’t, you know, be in charge, women couldn’t… The crews were primarily male, who then didn’t wanna work for a woman. Well my feeling is that if there’s a crewmember who doesn’t wanna work for a woman, he doesn’t come on my crew. But frankly, what my feeling about crews is, they wanna work. I mean the least of it is, you know, the gender of the Director. I mean what they want is a good project that they can do good work on.

JMS: So, little by little, things began to loosen up, and I know in the early years, I used to make it my business to go and see every single movie that was directed by a woman. But I mean, I was the first one… First of all, I wanted to show the flag, but second of all I didn’t wanna be alone. I hated it; I hated always being “the pioneer”, or “the woman Director”. And little by little, women began to move into all sorts of crew positions, and to make music videos, and make shorts, and you know, all kinds of films. But, it’s a ridiculously small amount. And I remember I was interviewed and asked the same question in the LA Times, on CHILLY SCENES OF WINTER, so we’re talking 19, you know, 80 [1980] or something. And asked about that, and I said, “Well, women are 52 percent of the public. Are women 52 percent of the jobs in the film business?” You know, maybe because a certain amount of women don’t wanna work, maybe that isn’t even, you know, that skews it, but even so, I mean, it’s absurd there so few women that get the opportunity to really make movies. And I think that the Directors, the women Directors that I admire most are from Europe. [INT: Well this is gonna sound peculiar, but let me see if I can put it in the context. First of all, what drove you first and foremost was your love of film, and telling stories.] Definitely. [INT: It wasn’t about, I think women should be directing movies, it had nothing to do with that. But that you said this is something I wanna do. And you actually, not only accomplished it, you maintained, and kept yourself, your personality, your own sensitivities as a woman in what appeared to be a man’s world. You didn’t adapt, and say, “Okay, well now I mean I have to be like them,” you know, you in essence said, “I’m going to be myself in that world,” with your own insecurities, you own worries, your own, you know, uncertainties, and at the same time, you know--] Yes, but you know, there were certain advantages that I discovered that are kind of interesting. I don’t feel any, in any way diminished if I have to ask someone to help me. And when I first started out, all my crewmembers would say, “Oh, god, this is amazing, because when you come with a first time Director and it’s male, they come on and they know what they’re doing. And so we just sort of sit there and watch them, you know, fall off the rock, right? Whereas you don’t have any trouble saying, ‘I’m not sure about how to do this. How shall I do this? I haven’t done this before.’” Because I don’t feel it diminishes me, and I don’t think any woman does; that’s not a problem for a woman. Whereas, you know, the jokes about men who won’t ask directions, and stuff like that, I don’t think men are like that, you know, I think that was much stronger, say in the early period when I first started, but… And also, you know, I don’t wanna be a man, I mean I wanna be me, I wanna be what I am, and if I can’t, I don’t wanna make, you know, I don’t wanna do anything. I don’t wanna change myself in order to, to do something like that, and I don’t think it’s necessary. [INT: Yeah, ‘cause I sense that your politics about all this is really, came out of a kind of, I wanna help others, or I wanna be on the side, I mean, it’s not like… It’s just a very genuine outgrowth of your own experience, to sort of offer, to support other women in their pursuit of films as well.] Absolutely. And you know, my middle daughter has made films, although she’s now become a fiction Writer, she just published her first novel, she has stories in The New Yorker, and you know, she’s... And my youngest daughter made an absolutely wonderful short film, which was in New Directors [New Directors/New Films], and is now a screenwriter. So, you know, two of my kids have actually, I’ve seen, you know, this particular field existing with them, and I see the world that they’re in, you know, is somewhat more open to women. It's...

JMS: Nobody makes you make a film. And I often have to look in the mirror and say to myself, you know, nobody put a gun to your head. I’ve done that often when I’ve been on a set and things are going awry, and I thought oh lord, what’s going on here? And I say, you know, “You wanna do this. If you don’t wanna do it, stop.” You know? But I do wanna do it, so I don’t stop. But it’s sort of good to think, you know, it’s not all them against me, it’s that I wanna do it. [INT: Absolutely. Well great. Thank you, thank you, I think that was terrific, really.] Well thank you. [INT: Really, that was terrific.]

INT: I’m Michael Pressman, and I’m here with Joan Micklin Silver, in the DGA building in New York City, September 19th, 2005. And we’ve just concluded a marvelous and comprehensive interview about Joan’s film directing career, screenwriting career, and her journey in the film world. 

JMS: And I’d like to say thank you to you, Michael, for the wonderful interview, and I’d like to say thank you to the DGA for even doing these. I think it’s a wonderful idea, and I feel very proud that I’m one of the subjects.